Dr. Paul Babiak Ph.D discusses Snakes in Suits with The Fan Carpet’s Paul Risker
Released today on home entertainment, or some point in the recent past depending upon when you are reading this, Arbitage is now available to own on Blu-Ray and DVD. Nicholas Jarecki’s thriller witnesses Richard Gere unleashing his psychopathic tendencies in what The Fan Carpet’s Lindsey Brown described as “an intense performance, marching to his own villainous theme…”
We were fortunate to have an opportunity to interview Dr. Paul Babiak Ph.D. and co-author of Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work to discuss the subject of psychopathy. We spoke with Babiak about the origins of Snakes in Suits, the attraction of psychopaths to the corporate world, and the media’s perpetuation of the myth that identifies psychopaths as serial killers. We took the opportunity to seek Babiak’s expert opinion on which incarnations of the psychopath in cinema are the most realistic and how individuals such as you and me can identify psychopathic traits within ourselves.
Here at The Fan Carpet we are still debating what our writer’s cards with “that subtle off-white colouring,” “tasteful thickness” and “watermark” say about us all?
Published six years ago, the obvious question to get out of the way first is twofold. First what was the genesis of the book, and second how did you and Robert come together to write Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work?
Many years ago, while consulting with a client on a high-performance teambuilding issue, I came across an individual, the leader of this failing group, who seemed to be destroying group cohesion, trust, communication, productivity and so forth. I had been told by upper management that he was a High Potential employee and had a bright future with the company. I admit I was impressed with him at first. However as I worked with the team and watched them all interact I noticed that some members really liked him but others truly hated him, thought he was a “snake.”
In private meetings with team members as well as onlookers, I learned more and more about his deceit, pathological lying, back-stabbing, and how he was taking credit for the group’s successes but blaming a lot of others for the failure he was experiencing in trying to “lead” them. Seeing him as the typical untrained, inexperienced leader, I approached the problem in the traditional way. Then one day, unexpectedly, the company disbanded the team, promoted this problematic individual into his own boss’s job and transferred his boss to a lower level. Needless to say, I did not see this coming (nor did anyone else).
For a while afterwards I puzzled over what had really happened and recalled my early readings about psychopathy. I thought he might have been a psychopath, but unlike the serial killer or psycho variety that the media has perpetuated over the years (it is a myth, by the way).
I called Dr. Robert D. Hare, the world’s expert on psychopathy and with the aid of his new Psychopathy Checklist (now referred to as the PCL-R), I did an assessment. I was shocked at the result — I had been working with a true psychopath, whom I now refer to as the Corporate Psychopath.
I recently watched the movie Arbitrage and I must say that Richard Gere’s portrayal of a manipulative, unfeeling, yet charming entrepreneur is right on. Most film portrayals of the psychopath exaggerate many of their traits and characteristics (there are 20 of them documented in the PCL-R), but Richard Gere’s performance displays them appropriately, larger than life sometimes but very subtle other times, very true to life.
Over time Bob Hare and I conducted research on other corporate psychopaths and ultimately decided there was enough evidence to write Snakes In Suits. Because the book was aimed at both a business as well as a general audience we structured many scenarios to illustrate what victims would actually see and hear as they interacted with a psychopath. Some are very subtle, like Richard Gere’s portrayal, but others are more obvious. We’ve found that the more you read and learn about psychopathy the better able you will be to avoid them or at least defend yourself should you become embroiled in them.
What is it about the corporate world that attracts psychopaths, and outside of the corporate world what are the other professional environments that are most likely to attract people who display psychopathic tendencies?
Psychopaths are opportunistic individuals unwilling to expend much effort in producing useful work and focused on satisfying their own needs. They also don’t like or follow rules, including the law, and seem to enjoy manipulating people, what I call “playing head games.” The corporate world offers many opportunities for them to play out their games and satisfy their needs, especially if there is fast money involved.
Not all corporations would attract those with psychopathic personalities, of course. I’ve argued that old-world bureaucracies would be very boring indeed for them especially with their command and control structures filled with rules, policies and procedures. Actually, you and I would find them constraining as well! But the world has changed in many ways. In order to survive in modern times companies have had to do things faster, better with less. As they transition from bureaucracy to some free-form future structure companies often jettison the very systems and processes that kept the psychopath at bay. For example, performance appraisal systems are vital to managing people — without them (or with a poorly implemented one) you can’t really identify less-than-adequate performers and help them improve (or ease them out if that is necessary). The psychopath can easily continue to fly under the radar if there is no system in place for documenting their poor performance.
Psychopaths are consummate rule breakers; they will tell lies as readily as the truth (if it suits them), abuse co-workers emotionally and psychologically, and possibly defraud the company of money or product. But their psychopathic traits are very often mistaken for good leadership traits. For example, their grandiose sense of self-worth looks like self-confidence, glib and superficial charm looks like charisma, lack of goals is misinterpreted as being a visionary thinker, lack of guilt, remorse or empathy makes it easier for them to make hard, painful decisions which are considered the sign of a strong leader, etc. Collectively I refer to these as the “psychopathic fiction” — they present whatever “mask” is necessary to get what they want, often building “psychopathic bonds” with those who they can use to get ahead.
For example, Richard Gere’s character in Arbitrage interacts with many people through the course of the film, including his wife, daughter, young protégé, the police, his lawyer and other business associates. Gere does an excellent job of subtly managing the perceptions of each of these individuals to his own benefit. He wears many masks, each designed to fit his target. You may find yourself falling for one or two of them yourself.
To the second part of your question, there has been no definitive research on what professions attract psychopaths per se. However, in my own consulting practice I can say that most of my clients (who feel they are being victimized by a psychopath) come from the financial services field but also medicine, law, non-profits, academia, small businesses, and so forth.
Terms such as psychopath and serial killer are popular terms to describe certain people, both in film, literature and real life, but is there a clear distinction between the two, and is a psychopath necessarily a violent individual?
Unfortunately, the media has done a lot to perpetuate the myth that all psychopaths are serial killers and all serial killers are psychopaths. There is new research, some of it conducted by law enforcement, on this question which shows that this is not the case. We know that about 1% of the general population have psychopathic features, which would mean (if the above is true) that there would be many, many more serial killers running around than there actually is. We now know that some serial killers commit their crimes for reasons very different than a psychopathic personality disorder. This is still a new area of research, so we do not fully understand all of the other psychological mechanisms that drive individuals to commit such hideous crimes.
Although aggression (not violence) is a part of the definition of psychopathy, individual psychopaths can vary based on the amount of each of the 20 traits and characteristics they have. Much research has shown that psychopathy is a dimension or continuum rather than a type. What I noticed early on in my research is that the corporate psychopath is exceeding low on aggression, at least the obvious, overt kind. They do however, exhibit covert aggressive tendencies in the manipulation, deceit and oftentimes frauds that they perpetrate. Now, to complete the picture, we know that psychopaths are responsible for about 50% of all crimes and that their crimes tend to be more violent. However, there are plenty of psychopaths that commit emotional and psychological violence (abuse) on their victims (usually spouses, parents, children, etc.) that goes unnoticed (and sadly, often unreported).
Arbitrage handles this covert abuse very well. Richard Gere’s character initially comes across as a likeable guy actually. You may even find yourself rooting for him at times; certainly you’ll be asking yourself, how will he get out of this one? What I like about his portrayal is the subtle undercurrent of abuse he brings to the screen. It is a mix of cleverness, creativity, self-confidence, assertiveness, all with a seeming lack of empathy, remorse or sense of guilt. Does he have a conscience? To what lengths will he go to get out of his situation?
In terms of the depiction of the psychopath in film, which films would you cite as on the one hand a realistic depiction and on the other hand a less than realistic depiction?
Certainly, one of the most celebrated films about a psychopath is Silence of the Lambs. What I like about it is the psychological manipulation, excellently played out. I have used it in training programs; however, it, being a Hollywood movie thriller, goes a bit over the top at times. In the business genre, Wall Street is an excellent film about the corporate psychopath; however, some of the antics portrayed are a stretch (but not out of the realm of possibilities).
Arbitrage, on the other hand, provides a very realistic portrayal of a psychopath on many levels. Richard Gere’s character has made good use of his psychopathic tendencies to build his own major business and appears to have run it well (albeit with a self-centered heavy hand). He’s manipulated all the other characters well which makes for a good training film. When things fall apart, though, he is faced with having to manage all the masks he has created as the other characters begin to intermingle beyond what he can control. His need to keep all of his secrets separate is challenged. I particularly enjoyed watching him juggle (or trying to juggle) everything that fate and events throw in front of him.
How can individuals begin the introspective process of seeing if they possess these traits, and how can we begin to identify others who may possess psychopathic tendencies?
Lists of psychopathic traits can be found on the Internet of course, but just checking off this or that is not how it’s done. The assessment procedure involves a specific interviewing protocol, usually conducted by a psychologist or psychiatrist with extensive training, and the use of a rather large manual for interpretation. Since we all display some psychopathic features sometimes, it is tempting to think you (or someone you know) is a psychopath if you check off some boxes! In my experience I’ve found that people tend to over-estimate the degree of psychopathic features they see in themselves or someone else.
True psychopaths rarely have the level of insight necessary to assess their own personalities and those that claim to rarely care; actually, they may be proud of their psychopathy, often using it as an excuse for their behaviours (remember, psychopaths cannot accept blame and will use any means at their disposal to shift it onto others, including society, their genes, the legal system, upbringing, etc.)
If you are truly curious about whether you have psychopathic features, I would first recommend you ask someone you know and trust, perhaps a spouse, parent or teacher, what they think about how you present yourself. Oftentimes, those close to us see things we do not see in ourselves. However, I would definitely follow-up with a visit to a psychologist or psychotherapist trained in the evaluation of psychopathy for a full assessment. If you don’t care to do this but feel you have one or two problematic traits, then by all means seek assistance from a mental health professional about those things that concern you.
Can these traits be exploited in a positive way?
This is an interesting question! If you’re asking whether you, a non-psychopath, can exploit a psychopath, then I would have to say No, it would be exceedingly difficult. There are a couple of reasons for this: first, because they are impulsive, a psychopath can and will do something that you wouldn’t expect and wouldn’t see coming. They can outflank you quite easily. Secondly, they will stoop to depths that most people could never approach; in fact, you would be shocked at the lengths they will go to get what they want — most people couldn’t stomach going against their core decency. So, you would be out gunned from the start.
If you’re asking whether you, a non-psychopath, could emulate some of the traits of the psychopath to get ahead, then I would say yes (only a couple, though), as long as you don’t give up your integrity and basic humanity. For instance, psychopaths come across as self-confident and charismatic, both traits of good leaders. These things can be learned if you put your mind to it.
Richard Gere’s character in Arbitrage displays many of the traits of a good leader and successful businessperson. He has the charisma (and good looks — it is Richard Gere after all) and confidence I mentioned but also the strength, persuasion, and negotiation skills you need to be successful. What you can bring to the equation, which would make you a better leader for the long haul is integrity and perhaps a bit of modesty. These things can’t be learned, at least I don’t know how, so if you have these core traits and values (and don’t waiver from them) you can be successful by adding in some of the skill factors that Richard Gere displays on screen.
QED
Dr. Babiak is an Industrial and Organizational Psychologist who coaches and consults with executives and organizations on leadership development and issues management concerns. His research focuses on corporate psychopaths, their traits and characteristics, manipulation techniques, and the impact they can have on organizational performance and employee job satisfaction. He is the author of Snakes In Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work, with Dr. Robert D. Hare, as well as several scientific papers and book chapters.
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