A Conversation with Filmmaker Carlos Agull
Plot for Peace one of the years must see documentaries opens a window onto the past to tell the story of the Plot for Peace in South Africa through the story of the mysterious “Monsieur Jacques.” The film’s stroke of brilliance is creating a meeting point between documentary and narrative filmmaking, creating an informative and compelling piece of filmmaking.
Ahead of next week’s home entertainment release and to coincide with the opening weekend theatrical release, The Fan Carpet spoke with co-director Carlos Agulló about his fine arts background, the similarities between documentary and fiction, telling an inspirational story that explores a new cinematic frontier and the impact of his journey into the past.
Why a career in filmmaking? Was there that one inspirational moment?
I actually studied fine arts, and it was through my studies that I began to move from painting to photography, and then onto video art when I began a short course. Enjoying it I found out that there was a chance to make a living through it, and it was only then that I became interested in film. I was a late comer, but I was very lucky because I moved on quickly to becoming an editor’s assistant, and then an editor when I worked with Alejandro Amenábar on The Sea Inside. Afterwards I worked with him as an editor’s assistant but the editor who was also a director recommended me to his friends.
It was early on I decided that I wanted to direct, and so I continued to edit other people’s films whilst I began directing my shorts.
Editing is regarded as one of the best ways to learn the craft of directing. How invaluable was editing in helping you to pursue your directorial ambitions?
I never studied film, and so I learned how to make films through my work as an editor. Editing provided me with all the technicalities of how movies are made, and also the aspects of storytelling.
When I directed my first film I had arranged a meeting at my house with the main two actors, and I found myself thinking, what do I do with them? I had never worked with actors before and I didn’t know what one was supposed to do. They were supportive and so it went well, but then I decided to learn about directing actors. I enjoyed that so much that now it’s a part of the process that I enjoy the most, and it has also influenced the way in which I shoot. I have learned to shoot for the actors, to make things easier for them, and to not split their work into a thousand pieces, which gives them more takes.
Whilst documentary and narrative filmmaking are perceived as distinctive strands of filmmaking, the two embrace narrative albeit with a different approach. What are your thoughts on the distinctions between the two?
For each filmmaker it is a different story. I don’t believe you should begin a project with the decision of what kind of film you want to make. You have to be very sincere to yourself and find your own way of filmmaking, and not just adapt to one of the ways you already know.
Personally there is not so much of a difference between making a documentary and making a fiction film; even if you are dealing with non-actors and real characters. Whether it is a documentary or not, you can make your characters as complex as possible, but you will never have a real person in a movie. You will always end up having to make choices, and to use some aspects of this real character. In the end whether it is a fiction film or a documentary you are going to have create a character; you are going to have to understand who you character is and the reason for their actions; around which you will have to adapt your narrative. What interests me is the exploration of the forms of making a film that are in between making a documentary or fiction film.
Plot for Peace tells the story of Jean-Yves Ollivier aka “Monsieur Jacques.” Why this particular story and why now?
The story was discovered by Mandy Jacobson who runs the African Oral History Archive, and the South African Foundation, which deal with trying to keep alive the memory of all the people who took part in the political tensions in South Africa. In many of the interviews people were mentioning this mysterious character named “Monsieur Jacques”, the code name Jean-Yves Ollivier used in the 1980s. She became interested in the character and after investigating she tracked him down. It took a few months to convince him to tell his story, and it was then that she involved me in the film. Initially it was a shock as I had never worked in documentaries, and I had no idea about African history or politics. But she assured me that they had an historical advisor and scriptwriter [Stephen Smith] who’s an expert in African Studies. “You don’t need to worry about that; you’ll be working very closely with Stephen, but what we need is a storyteller with a fictional background. We want the movie to feel more like a thriller than a historical documentary in order to reach a wider, young and international audience. So that is why we want somebody with a fictional background and preferably somebody from outside South Africa.” Finding this to be both challenging and engaging I very quickly decided to participate in the project.
Co-directing Plot for Peace with Mandy Jacobson, could you discuss the nature of your collaboration?
Initially we spent time together for the first two or three months, mainly discussing points of view of the story along with Stephen. My family is in Spain and I couldn’t live in South Africa for three years. So I was editing in Spain where I would sit for a month or two and then send a rough cut. Afterwards we would get together again to discuss the possibilities and consider which additional characters we needed to interview or those we needed to re-interview. Then we re-wrote the script and went on shooting. It was a very long process in which we re-scripted, re-interviewed and re-edited because it was such an intense research process. We never knew from day one what the list of interviewees was or even what the script was. We had to find it out through the process, and so it was a very intense and long task.
The impact of The Cold War on Africa is not as widely known nor is it as widely discussed. Whilst science-fiction hypothesises the future, documentaries can serve as a window into both the present and the past.
The relationship between history and filmmaking is interesting in that it is not only a way to communicate the history but also to create it, and then influence how history is written. In the end history is made by people who do things, but then somebody must tell their story. Through documentaries we are discovering things that have not been written about and are not being taught in Universities. In the last twenty or thirty years many things have been disclosed by documentary filmmakers, and I’m sure that in twenty years’ time many of the history books will include many of the things that were disclosed in these films.
As a filmmaker do you feel as though you are exploring this frontier between filmmaking and history, a frontier that we have only recently begun to explore?
With Plot for Peace I definitely feel that way, but not all my projects in the future will necessarily be the same kind of films as this one. So I don’t know what my relationship will be with my career in this sense. I am certainly interested in exploring the frontier between documentary and fiction, but not necessarily always through historical movies. It might be related to a more personal character movie without such a focus on history. I’m interested in telling stories that belong to real characters, and from whom I can introduce some fictional conflict. Also to work with non-professional actors on real characters and explore that line between documentary and fiction.
There are many reasons past and present that give us reason to be cynical, but Plot for Peace is an optimistic beacon of light which gives us yet another reason to be optimistic and believe in the human spirit.
On the one hand we have the recent history of South Africa wherein you get this amazing example of Nelson Mandela who was able to forgive the people who imprisoned him for all those years. But the miracle for me is not just that he forgave, but the whole country decided to follow his example. On the other hand for a broader audience outside of South Africa, the positive message of the film is important for future generations to understand that things can be done. People are now re-defining the relationship between the individual and politics, especially with new technologies, and social media. It is not so clear how we do things when we are just clicking, and how this influence has impacted society. The main thing is to keep the spirit alive that you can make a change. It might be by clicking on a link on your computer or it might be by flying to a different country and demonstrating. Each person has a different capability of reach. Not all of us can take a private plane and meet with political leaders, but that doesn’t mean our actions are less important. So it is an opportunity to send an optimistic message to the younger generation, because otherwise people sit back and decide that this is too much for them, and that they are just a tiny piece in their society, and that they cannot do anything. Examples like Jean-Yves Ollivier are valuable.
How has this journey influenced your perspective and impacted you on a personal and professional level?
Obviously as a filmmaker but also on a personal level. Since the time you study history in school you learn that countries sometimes behave in a way that reminds you of human beings. In a certain conflict you might think that this country was very selfish, and that the other one behaved in a very generous way. But when you talk to these people you realise how this is due to human beings making decisions behind the scenes, and it is then that you realise the importance of the relationships between these people. Sometimes two political leaders might be having a drink together in a bar between meetings, and whether they get along at that point or don’t get along; it will make a big difference to the lives of many people. It may decide whether this conflict is resolved two months earlier or two months later.
It’s very interesting to see how these events transpire and the decisions that have to be taken on a certain day, in a certain place, and by a certain group of people. It’s not always as official as we might think. Decisions are not always being supervised by a political party, and many times it’s one or two persons. So it’s interesting to see how non-officials are also decisive in the decision making process, specifically how people such as Jean-Yves who are not working for any country, but who are only trying to help by providing an environment where negotiations can be dealt with at a different level. When you have a recorder in front of you or a witness in an official capacity you cannot say things that you would say in a less informal environment. It’s very important that the two take place parallel to one another because with diplomacy, if in the end you don’t have the leaders signing the papers then it doesn’t go anywhere. You need to have the approval of the officials; the ones who have the votes, and who have the people of the country behind them. But without this parallel diplomacy things would move very slowly. For me it was shocking to be so close to this process, and so close to these people who were involved and hear it from them first hand.
Plot for peace is in theatres now and will be available to own on DVD courtesy of Trinity Films from 24th March
DVD details
PLOT FOR PEACE is written by Stephen Smith, directed by Mandy Jacobson and Carlos Agulló, and produced by the African Oral History Archive. Original Music by Antony Partos. Original Song ‘Waterfall’, produced and performed by Blue May and Nik Yiannikas
Extras include ‘Making Plot For Peace’ – exclusive interviews with Jean-Yves Ollivier and directors (12mins), the official UK trailer (2mins) and more from the African Oral History Archive: ‘Winnie Mandela: In Her Own Words’ – EXTRACT (6mins) / ‘The Foreign Minister’ – EXTRACT (7mins) / ‘Women Of Style’ – EXTRACT (8mins)
Cert.12 Running Time: 81mins Subtitles: Eng, Fr, Sp, De, Por